Maybe this is just an inside-the-Beltway thing, but did anybody else notice that Sen. Bob Dole (the front-running Republican candidate) absolutely panned NIN yesterday (6/1), along with the rest of [the entertainment industry] (including Natural Born Killers and True Romance)?
The Washington Post today gave the story (actually, there were two) front-page, above-the-fold coverage -- reciting the lyrics to "big man with a gun," where the phrase "i'm going to come all over you" is included. Then, quoting William J. Bennett (as in the former education secretary and author of The Book of Virtues -- retch), said that Bennett "encouraged" newspapers to print the "vile" lyrics.
I thought I was going to hurl....
FYI: Time Warner was singled out, along with the flicks mentioned, NIN, and -- predictably -- several rappers, including the Geto Boys. Also interesting to note is that Dole freely admits he has never seen the movies he's criticizing, nor has he listened to the music.
Now, if this ain't a thread, I don't know what is.
darrell swoap (dswoap@interserv.com):
I've got a little commentary on this whole BMWaG controversy. I think the cause of this entire thing is lack of communication, I seriously doubt that Bob Dole, Rush Limbaugh, or any others have even heard of NIN before this BMWaG thing blew up. If I were so ignorant, I would probably have a bad picture of Trent in my mind as well. The fact of the matter is, all of these people are condemning an artist they know absolutely nothing about. They are wholly unqualified to speak in any capacity of the content of NIN's lyrics. I think that the best thing for the NIN supporters to do would be to take this whole event with a grain of salt, and e-mail some of these people with some information. At least next time Rush or Bob open their mouths, it will be on a subject in which they have some concrete background knowledge.
carmen rocco (sandman@ganet.net):
How can anyone, Dole in particular, criticize something he's never heard? Do I write a critique of a movie based on the preview? Second, just naming that one line from BMWaG is putting it in an entirely different context. Had he read the lyrics to the entire song, he would see the whole meaning of it -- satirizing the obscene amount of rape and violence going on in this country -- which may have given him a totally different opinion of the song.
keeper (steven_meckl@bocaraton.ibm.com):
...Although I agree that Bob Dole doesn't belong anywhere near the White House (except in the West Wing during a tour), I think you should maybe post some actual reasons for your opinions, instead of the normal biased, prejudiced, unfounded bullshit we have become used to on the Usenet.
WHY don't you like Bob Dole? Enquiring minds want to know.
chris emmerth (rabarret@saturn.acs.oakland.edu):
I was referring to the recent posts wherein Dole has blamed the evils of society on NIN and gangsta rappers. I cannot respect someone who blames Time Warner media for the murders of thousands of kids, while at the same time wanting to cut back federal funding for public education. It is just this kind of hypocrisy that fuels inquisitions, and that is exactly what he and his cohorts are trying to pull off. It is a modern-day witch hunt. They focus the public's attention on graphic representations of evil, while they establish their own agendas when our backs are turned. Bob Dole is a career politician; he knows how to play this game quite well. He is already gathering together his army of the ignorant. That was the only reason he publicly denounced these films and musicians. He admitted to never seeing or hearing any of them, but he does know who will stand behind him in his crusade. It is only a game to him -- but if the game isn't stopped, we all lose.
lady oracle (jtthomas@stthomas.edu):
I think the whole problem with this is that Dole and Friends are holding up music groups like our beloved NIN and such others as Snoop Dogg -- and, it seems, gangsta rap in general -- without looking into the subject they're denouncing. That's ridiculous a) to do, and b) to admit to. "Well, I admit I've never listened to a NIN song or seen a concert, but someone just handed me these here lyrics and goshdarnit, they say [bleep] and [bleepity-bleep]. And this song is about guns! That can only mean two things: NIN promotes gun violence and demeans women, and it's demeaning to the African-American society. We need to censor these people! They're ruining our children! And we need to start right at the top of the chain: Time Warner."
Now, the problem with this argument is that, most obviously, Trent Reznor is to gangsta rap as Dr. Dre is to opera. Dole has a moderately noble intention, but if he attempts to back it up with the argument that saying "fuck" in a song is going to bring society crashing down around one's ears, without even listening to the music, it's just plain stupid. So much for credibility! Besides, stereotyping songs that mention guns in them as rap or Af-American isn't very smart, either. I guess the biggest problem I have with the whole thing is not that Dole and Company are making these claims about music and lyrics, because it's not entirely unexpected (we've all been listening to that argument for years), but that they haven't bothered to find out what the subject material is about before blasting it to the corners of the earth. Censorship without a rational base is not a good thing, however noble the intentions are.
dan rosan (danrosan@aol.com):
I was watching one of those Sunday morning news shows, and I saw William Bennett -- former Secretary of Education and Drug Czar -- attacking, among other artists, NIN. He read "big man with a gun" lyrics and used them as an example of women-hating, violence-inducing music. Doesn't that dipshit realize "big man" is satire...making fun of those rape/murder/women-are-dirt songs?
I guess not.
mr. self-destruct (morgoth@haven.ios.com):
Ahhh, but satirists have never been recognized in their time. Hell, look at Mark Twain. The guy's works are STILL banned from some schools, even though a lot of them are purely and clearly satirical.
tim volk (tim.volk@lightspeed.com):
A rather interesting disagreement to Dole was voiced by Louis Ruykeser on his PBS show Wall Street Week. To summarize, his opinion was that if enough people find some music or other product objectionable, then the marketplace would have dealt with it already by not buying the CDs (or whatever). I imagine many other hardcore capitalists feel the same way.
Let's hear what Dole and Company have to say after they have been hit in their portfolios.
nancy paulikas (nancyp@netcom.com):
Dear Editor (of Time magazine),
In regards to your special report, "Are Music and Movies Killing America's Soul?":
I am a 34-year-old female engineer whose taste in entertainment runs from Shakespeare and the symphony to Pulp Fiction and Nine Inch Nails. I am infuriated by the attempts of Bob Dole and others to use politics and financial influence to control my choices in art and music. I will be the first to agree that some Nine Inch Nails music may not be appropriate for the average adolescent; it takes intelligence and maturity, for example, to understand that "Big Man With A Gun" is actually an anti-gangsta, anti-macho song. That is why some albums have the Parental Advisory sticker. It is up to parents to take the time to judge what is appropriate for their children, and to give children the moral foundation they need. Don't blame Time Warner for the failure of parenting and the lack of personal responsibility in our society.
"now doesn't that make you feel better?" No, I'm still really pissed off. I've listened to broken three times already today. I need a beer. They say that this music promotes violence. They're wrong. It's reading this Dole shit over the last few days that's made me more violent than I've been in months.
traig scott foltz (traig.s.foltz.3@nd.edu)
...Here is the kicker in this story ...a journalist asked Dole if he had ever seen any of the movies he was targeting or heard any of the targeted music. His answer: "Well, no." The journalist asked him why he was targeting things as "cultural pollutants" when he had no first hand knowledge of these things, and his answer sounded like a little kid saying, "'Cause they said it was." Whoever "they" is I have no idea. This really pisses me off. I usually pride myself in political apathy because I really don't give a fuck about politics (because I believe them to be a short cut to thinking). But when some dirthead tightass stands up on a soap box and starts trying to tell me what is "good" and what is "evil" I get very annoyed, very fast. And then he tries to make people who listen to/watch this stuff, which he has deemed "cultural pollution," feel like second-class citizens because they do so. Well, I have one for the Net censors, the music censors, and the movie censors:
MOTHER FUCK YOU BOB DOLE AND YOUR WHOLE GODDAMN CAMPAIGN, YOU JUST FIRED THE LAST SHOT OF YOUR PATHETIC CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL CAREER. MARILYN MANSON IN '96!
buck satan (buck@dreamscape.com)
I have a serious question for you conservatives out there who agree with the current blasting of Time Warner over some of controversial artists they represent. I just got through watching MacNeil/Lehrer where this was the very topic of discussion. While I don't like censorship in any way, shape, or form, I can understand why some people would be upset with the content of so-called "gangsta rap." However, one thing really puzzles me, and I'd like an intelligent reply from someone who supports the current movement against Time Warner.
Dole, Limbaugh, Dornan, Bennett, and the rest of the gang are all against the "violent" music and film culture in our country. Yet all of these men support free and unrestricted access to firearms. Am I understanding this correctly: that it's acceptable to own and operate an AK-47, to have paramilitary militia groups preparing to go to war with the United States government, and to have your home stockpiled with weapons and ammunitions of all kinds, but it's not acceptable to watch a movie where a gun is used to kill someone, or to hear a song that speaks of gun violence, or to watch a movie or listen to a song that displays sexual content? Am I understanding this correctly?
Could someone who supports these men in this endeavor PLEASE explain the logic behind this viewpoint? I'm at a complete loss.
P.S. I think it speaks volumes to hear all these idiot conservatives refer to nine inch nails as "gangsta rap" when the polar opposite is true. This is nothing more than the Republican candidates kowtowing to the Christian Coalition.
henry e. kilpatrick jr. (hkilpatr@osf1.gmu.edu):
As well as an attack on a corporation that also gives money to Democrats. Dole sure didn't attack Rupert Murdoch's empire. I wonder why.
the muse (tmuse@mail.icon.net):
Hell, don't ask me -- I'm still trying to figure out why it's okay to shoot ATF agents with your guns instead of just watching a movie about it. (Oh yeah, the movie MADE them do it.)
...You thought Bill Clinton was wishy-washy? Wait till the Dolester gets going. I wish just one politician would stand up to those freaks and tell them to piss off. That's someone I'd vote for!
helvidicus (scho0127@gold.tc.umn.edu)
My question is -- having actually seen his speech -- is it illegal to question what is published or seen or heard in our society? Can you do that without getting beaten over the head with the censorship stick? Dole was forward when he said he did not want the government to get involved but wanted individuals, citizens, to do so. Can someone please define the line when questioning, being a consumer and not purchasing stuff, or boycotting industries because of what they publish is censorship? It is a fundamentally important question, because then issues like boycotting Mitsubishi because of their rain forest destruction would border on censorship. I do not defend Dole as pure, unbiased, non-politically motivated, etc., but I am curious about the people who have blown up at him. When is it censorship and when is it not?
david rusin (drusin@stevens-tech.edu):
I was flipping through the channels last night and to my surprise (not), Bill Bennett was on The Charlie Rose Show (PBS) talking about that Time Warner shit again. I don't like them naming names or anything, but of course the only group they did mention was NIN. They even quoted from BMWaG.
Jeeez, I am sick and tired of this garbage. How about letting us decide what we want to listen to? I started listening to NIN when I was at a very pissed-off stage of my life, and I related to the anger orchestrated by Trent. I still feel that way. I'm sure that people like Bill Bennett would think I'm a bad person for feeling like I do...but hey, I'm not Beaver Fucking Cleaver.
I'm a Republican and damn proud. But hey -- this censorship crap is really getting me down. I don't think I'll be voting Clinton in '96, but maybe now I won't vote at all. 'Cause dammit, when you mess with NIN you mess with me!
andy capps (ac3@evansville.edu):
Well, I just got done reading an interesting article in Newsweek. I can't believe how stupid the media can be, calling BMWaG a rap song. I bet a lot of you thought that same thing. Well, we are wrong. What we didn't know is that they got hold of a special mix of BMWaG.
Yes, it is true. Luther Campbell (aka Luke of 2 Live Crew) and our very own Trent Reznor got together once and thought it would be fun to make a remix of BMWaG. The reason for it would be to add a little more excitement to Trent's concerts. Luke is used to getting the crowd all riled up and getting women to strip. Trent liked this idea, and thought it would be nice to see a little more of his female fans (especially the ones who wear the cool vinyl dresses) at his concerts. So, they came up with the following song. Trent always hoped they could go on tour together, but Luke didn't want any of his bad publicity rubbing off on Trent.
Well, it seems as if Bob Dole has been a fan of Luke's since the early days. "All that funky music about showin' titties and shit" is what he's been quoted as saying when asked why.... It seems as if Mr. Dole decided that he had to go against the music he loves so much because it will get him in good with all the conservative Americans who actually vote. Since fans of "this music" aren't expected to be a large percentage of those voting, we aren't considered a threat. But we will show him come election time.
Anyway, if you can find a copy of this song, grab it up. I got it on a boot with the "Closer to Bail" mix. It's hard to find, though. It was taped at a live show that started off with Trent saying, "This is a little song I put together with a friend of mine. He's not a gangsta rapper, he's a T&A rapper. But the gangsta swing is the fun part about it. Enjoy!" Then Luke comes out and starts it off, "My name is Luke, and this is Trent. Nine Inch Nails is in the house let me hear ya say show them titties show them titties. All of ya mommas is hos and bitches (said as a joke, which was picked up by Newsweek)." The crowd gets excited, and the moms get offended....
jim brody (jbrody@q.continuum.net):
There is nothing more politically suicidal than when a political party attempts to prejudge morality, especially when it's only to court an extreme segment of that party.
It never works, it always backfires, and it will on Senator Dole, just like it has on everybody else who has tried it.
manda tropp (bd81116@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu):
With all this talk about Bob Dole's desire to curb gangsta rap and other explicit forms of media, I felt the need to mention what I heard on the Today show. Some guy decided to read a passage from Newt Gingrich's new novel, and may I say it was QUITE sexually explicit (well, for Dole's standards).
Anyhow, the guy's point (which I agree with) is that if Dole is going to take this stand, he needs to be consistent. He needs to condemn Newt along with all the others, or his argument is shot. He won't, however, because a rift in the Republican party is worse for them.
I'm not saying I agree with Dole; I disagree 100 percent. I just think it is funny how inconsistent his stand is.
gordon craick (pred@stang.netspace.net.au):
Today here in OZtralia, the local paper (Saturday Age, 10/6/95) had a smallish front page story on music censorship. And of course, they had to have a picture of Reznor and the lyrics to BMWaG and the part "I wanna put a hole in your head, just for the fuck of it." Now, of course, being typical media they don't get any of the significance of the song or anything like that. But what really SHITTED me was that the article itself was not even about NIN alternative stuff, but complaints against rap/hip-hop albums advocating violence. There wasn't even one mention of NIN in the article, just that misplaced quote.
Why the hell do they keep doing this sort of thing? So what if NIN is violent or whatever -- fuck, you've gotta have a certain mind to like NIN anyway. It's not as if little kids are going to buy the album and go out and kill someone....
youth (mhide@lamar.colostate.edu):
Exactly. People seem to think that if a little kid hears his favorite artist talking about killing people he/she's going to do it to. It has happened before, a few times. But since it's happened so little, why does the government see the need to take action? Why not let the 95 percent of the population who can handle explicit music listen to what they want? It seems to me like it's the responsibility of the parents to know whether or not their kid has enough common sense to handle that kind of music. If not, then it's the parents' responsibility to keep their kid from hearing it. It's just really fucking stupid for the government to protect that 5 percent of the population by banning the music and ignoring the other 95 percent.
Fuck Bob Dole. Also fuck anyone who is pro-censorship. The Constitution was written for a reason.
liberty (liberty@panix.com):
Dole was following the dictum that the way to deal with bad speech is more speech (i.e., don't censor someone who abuses freedom of speech -- shame, embarrass, cajole, persuade, etc. the offending party instead).
Indeed, Janet Reno, Senator Simon, and Clinton (via his indictment of talk radio and the National Rifle Association) have indicated a willingness to use coercive measures to silence speech/expression with which they disagree.
There is huge literature on the role of "modeling" (i.e., observing and imitating the behavior of someone else) on behavior. Both human and animal studies suggest that it is a very potent form of learning with far-reaching effects on behavior (cf. Bandura for some interesting human studies in this area).
Young children do engage in behaviors that they learned by watching salient models (parents, teachers, other children, etc. -- any parent or teacher can attest to the potent role modeling plays in basic instruction). Popular media characters can also serve as models for children to imitate. This is a premise upon which "educational" productions such as Sesame Street and Barney are implicitly based, so liberals ARE aware of the effects of modeling on children's behavior.
A behavioral model has its most potent effects in the absence of competing models. So if a child grows up in an environment devoid of positive models (e.g. parents, teachers, and peers who model appropriate prosocial behavior for the child to incorporate into his/her own behavioral repertoire), it is likely that substitutive models, such as those found in characters invented by the popular media, will have more influence in shaping the course of the child's learning history.
Give the potential for media characters to act as behavioral models, it is not inappropriate to consider what sort of behaviors they are displaying for children (and adults, for that matter -- learning doesn't stop with maturity) to imitate. A child who has had continual exposure to (and has incorporated) prosocial constructs and behaviors is not likely to be swayed to any significant degree by the egregiously antisocial images, concepts, and actions so often found in what Hollywood calls popular entertainment. Children raised in stable, nurturing environments that have provided ample opportunities for positive modeling (i.e., adequate parenting) can listen to "gangsta rap" and watch Time Warner fare all day without ever having an impulse to commit robbery, rape, and murder.
Bottom line: Censorship of media stimuli, as abhorrent as some of it may be, makes about as much sense as gun control. Society mustn't be held hostage to the fact that some people will always misuse and/or evince undesirable responses to some of our technology some of the time.
The liberals are still reacting to last November and will do/say just about anything to regain the power they have lost. What you are hearing is the squealing of thousands of rats whose ship is sinking in the middle of the ocean. With nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, no way to escape, the liberals are panicking. All they can do is make a lot of noise before they go into that dark night. Limbaugh predicted as much after the last election.
andrea allan (dreagrl@aol.com):
Well, can I just say I was enraged when I heard what good ol' Bob said. I happen to be a Republican and I couldn't believe my ears. Christ, how can he have an opinion about something he is obviously so ignorant of? Let's just say Mr. Dole is without my vote in the primary or election! And so is anyone else who thinks that way.
poptart (ckile@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu):
You actually think they're gonna let you be a "Republican for NIN" after Pat Robertson hijacks MTV and hands it over to Ralph Reed and all those nice Republican mommies who will, remember, be monitoring your every potentially heretical or seditious post or e-mail message to groups like this one? (Ooops!! They probably won't "exist" on most services, either.)
You obviously don't get the big picture.
This is the start of a culture war. Get informed, get down, or get out.
mindy frerking (alicef@netcom.com):
Hell, why not just vote for Cthulhu in the next election? Why settle for the lesser evil?
Why, he promises to end poverty! Get rid of the budget problems! And, if he must, he might consider Bob Dole for a running mate.
Oh, by the way, YOU can help Cthulhu's bid for presidency by joining the Campus Crusade for Cthulhu. Just send your firstborn child in a series of small boxes to:
Campus Crusade for CthulhuWell, now I suppose I'll be receiving mail from Jehovah's Witnesses with "REPENT, SINNER" written in big, bold, red letters on the top.
PO Box 666
Hell NJ 69696
Oh well, I'll feel more at home in hell anyway....
bill trimble (billtrimble@netins.net):
...Gee, mommy, if you don't want me listening to nine inch nails anymore, I'll have to find something else to do. Like crack.
youth (mhide@lamar.colostate.edu):
'Nuff said.
anonymous indiana university student (student@indiana.edu):
THESE PRUDISH ASSOLES MUST BE STOPPED! PLEASE voice you opinion to your representatives about politicians getting into the entertainment business. NIN sells a couple million albums in this country. That's enough to make these guys balls shrivel up and fall off.
Don't be quiet and not take these people seriously. The freaks on the prudish side of the right always make themselves known, so people in Washington think they're bigger than they really are. PLEASE help put these pieces of shit in their place. Let someone know you won't let government dictate entertainment.... We have rights. Don't let them be taken away because some politician wants to look for a scapegoat instead of looking right there in that fucking city where all the real problems exist.
john knapik (zpnc@grove.iup.edu):
As much as I like NIN, I think there are limits on who should have access to this music. I don't think any child under the age of 15 should listen to NIN....
I love all music (NIN to Sinatra) and despise censorship. But I have seen the effect of music on people (simply because people aren't intelligent enough to separate fantasy from reality) and I think there should be some regulation when it comes to who actually has access to this music.
We as adults need to help guide the younger generation, not destroy them. We need to fill their minds with intelligent thoughts, not garbage. Flame me all you want, it will only show that you either don't care or are simply unintelligent.
Kids have many years to discover NIN, and when they do -- ON THEIR OWN -- they will actually understand the meaning of the music and won't be affected. Don't push it on them, let them find and figure out.
Or when they do find it, help explain it to them so they can understand.... At face value, you know how bad NIN is, and kids look at everything at face value.
jason allan (muzicman@solar.sky.net):
Please explain why you chose 15 as the age. Maturity level?
...What example(s) do you have to prove your theory? What effects did you see occur because of music, and why did you decide kids were not intelligent enough to separate fantasy from reality?...
...If you are looking for intelligence, you need to BE intelligent, and also be polite. By the way, you can not fill a mind with anything; the mind has to WANT to learn. If it wants garbage, that's what it will have. No one has control over that. You can lock up your kids, yell at 'em, smack them around (if you do, you're a sick dirty fucking rotten bastard, IMHO, but that's another topic) -- but they will still think about whatever the hell they want to....
...I don't know about everyone else...but I (as a kid) would have felt pretty funky sitting down at the dinner table with Dad and have him explain to me what a fistfuck was. By the way, I probably already knew.
That's the problem with this music issue... the parents say "Yes, regulate all music!" because THEY are the ignorant ones... they think our dear sweet children are stupid ignorant dolts! This thinking is not good and is why a lot of parents do not have strong relationships with their kids. Actually the kids are fucking out there screaming for life because we (the adults) fucked up everything they will have in their future ... but were too busy saying, "This music is fucking up our children's minds..." Think about it -- if the music wasn't there, they would look for something else, right?
...You need to quit worrying about the kids and what they are doing. You might think what they do is bad or unintelligent, but what can you do about it? Nothing. Take it away, they will go somewhere else for it. Yell at them, they will think you're the idiot. Hit them, they will KNOW you are an asshole.
Kids are wonderful...let 'em stay that way. They know more than you seem to think they do.
childe 612 (childe612@aol.com):
I'm going to plug in something a little unpleasant that might start an additional thought wave:
Thousands of children can and do get raped and/or sexually abused from the moment they are born. Technically, they are "not equipped to handle it." But many do. They live, and survive, and some thrive.
There are few politicians running around trying to get harder sentences on child molesters, nor are they advocating for children who are abused and then placed back in the custody of the abusive parent(s) -- let alone advocating for these children at all. The governor of New Jersey [Christine Todd Whitman] is a notable exception -- which I sometimes hate to admit because I am firmly against her other policies (and I'm not in New Jersey, so I can't vote against her). But all across the country, there are children with no recourse and often no vocabulary to describe what is happening to them. Where are the high-exposure media-manipulating politicians that will be the voice for this travesty?
Compared to this, how is something like the phrase "I want to fuck you like an animal" going to fit into a child's mind? In my humble opinion, I think it goes where all of the murder and blood and violence they see on TV, movies, and the news goes. Into the big culture bank that we all keep in our synapses.
I truly dislike being cynical, but I think it's way too late to start picking on something as relatively straightforward as nine inch nails. Besides which, music like this can be a survival mechanism for a lot of kids out there who are having a seriously rough time.
alex reynolds (chrome@cs.jhu.edu):
...Legislature that protects and nurtures kids under 10 years of age never gets passed or is repealed, à la Newt and Dole's anti-school lunch program, while legislature that treats mature kids like they've just been born gets passed with all due haste, à la parental discretion b.s. stickers and under-21 laws.
Bringing in NIN as a scapegoat for problems 12-year-olds have to face is just political and parental maneuvering, a power-play, a pointless authoritarian move designed only to reinforce this "we control you" message into kid's minds.... I think that if you like NIN, you have a reason. If a kid is going to shell out 15+ dollars for a cd, (s)he definitely has a reason for buying it. Even further, if you are going to listen to TDS repeatedly, then I doubt you will be listening without some understanding or appreciation for the content already. Adults have very, very little to worry about. I think they should be more concerned with educating kids on safe sex and responsible drug consumption.
...The entertainment industry pretty much has a good idea of what people want, and it gives it to them. Why wouldn't some reactionary fucks in Washington want to control such a valuable authoritarian resource?
helvidicus (scho0127@gold.tc.umn.edu):
I find it completely amusing that everybody flew off the handle when Bob Dole started talking about people taking responsibility for what is shown on TV, but they don't fly off the handle when a liberal Democrat advocates censorship.
Just today, Paul Simon said that Hollywood better shape up their act or "we will." Exactly what he said. where is all the up roar? I think Janet Reno said something identical, something like Washington would help Hollywood write scripts.
Those two are the ones you should be scared of. Dole's speech, if you saw all of it, was about citizen responsibility, not the government becoming involved. Even if you think his speech is just a prelude to censorship, why aren't all of you upset at Simon or Reno? I think hypocrisy is rearing its ugly head.
The problem I am seeing, and the point I [am] trying to make, is that since Dole's speech I have seen various posts with the subject BOB DOLE IS A STUPID FUCK all over this group. My point is that I should also being seeing (since everybody who likes NIN is vulnerable to the possibility of censorship) JANET RENO IS A STUPID FUCK, or PAUL SIMON IS A STUPID FUCK. I completely agree that everybody on this group opposes censorship. but we should post our outrage on both sides, and not just on Bob Dole. Yes, Dole, and Rush, did attack NIN directly (as did those stupid people quoted in Time and Newsweek), but that should not be the limit of our concern about censorship. Just because NIN is not explicitly mentioned in Simon's or Reno's speeches does not mean they're not on the list.
stacia (srm12@ksu.ksu.edu):
Not sure "fly off the handle" is accurate. If someone advocates censorship, then any "extreme" reaction is warranted. Something about the First Amendment, I think.
Why they said those things is beyond me, because politicians should know the Constitution better than anyone. As for the Democrats (I always thought Simon was Republican...), I would imagine that some of this is a reaction to the criticism they got for being "too liberal" and such.... No matter what, everyone should be very afraid of a politician who wants to control the entertainment industry.
...Besides, Dole specifically attacked NIN, and this is a NIN newsgroup. The only thing anyone can do about censorship is fight it, and I doubt that there is anyone on this newsgroup who is for it. That's quite a few people.